Running a small business is no easy task. It's messy and thrilling, and terrifying all at the same time. But no matter what, it's definitely a journey worth taking. As a mom of two littles, I know the daily struggles, and I'm here to walk this journey with you. If you're ready to feel empowered, encouraged and on fire for the things you truly love, then you're in the right place. I'm Rebecca Rice, a pizza loving hot chocolate drinking family photographer and educator. And this is the business Journey podcast. Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of the business Journey podcast. I am so excited that you're here today, because we've got a special guest with us. We have automated Tonkin from this can't be that hard podcast. And she's here to talk to us about a topic that I feel like really hits home for a lot of photographers. So we'll get into that in just a second. But it's really fun to have her on because I was actually on her podcast about this time last year. And so we were able to connect again, get her on here for you guys. And she's just a wealth of knowledge and wisdom. And so I'm really excited to dive into our topic today. But before we do, hello, Onna me, how are you? And thank you for coming on to our podcast. Welcome.
Thank you. Oh, gosh, thank you. Yeah, no, I'm super excited to get to chat. I always feel like it's so fun to connect with, obviously, other photographers, but in particular other photographers who have such like, minds for business and all that sort of good stuff. So I am sure when you joined me, I got so many emails and things from people being like, Ah, my mind is blown wide open about like what mini sessions can be and and so I would love to be able to deliver even a fraction of that value for your audience.
Oh, I know you will for sure. I love listening to your podcast. So I'm excited for this conversation. So we wanted to come together and talk about this topic of when people when clients come to us and say that they can't afford us. That's something that every photographer obviously experiences at some point. And it can be really hurtful and hard to walk through. Because we're humans, and that's just a hard response. Nobody wants to receive rejection, especially when it's about you know, our pricing. And we It makes us question everything. And so, I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on that response. How do you process it? You know, how can our listeners, you know, take that in a healthy way and interpret it maybe differently than they do now. So I love to hear?
Yeah, I feel like this is such a it's such a good topic because a every single photographer out there, literally, regardless of price point experiences this pushback, probably regularly I think that you know, it is just one of the most common responses that we get. And right now it's super timely because like we are entering a period of time where gas prices are really high if you're here in the US and and I guess probably around the world, but like the the world is entering into a period of sort of economic not super high times and and so luxury spending on things like photography is subject to you know, budget cuts in people's families or wherever else that is one of the easier things to to cut. So as service providers, we have to take that circumstance right that reality in the world and we have to combine that with the fact that that piece of pushback comes no matter what the economy is looking like you know people say it's too much no matter how much you charge and what their bank account looks like. I've had people tell me I was too expensive ultimately book me and then roll up in like a pair of twin Tesla's and I'm like, What's going on here? So the you know, there's there's like the head game, there's the reality game there's so many good things to to break down. And so I'm excited to chat. Yeah, just to give you a little bit of background when when I was first when we first talked about having this be the topic of our conversation, I sat down and I I kind of went through all the different times I tried to think through when people have said that to me or when I honestly have said it to other people when I have been maybe not hiring a photographer my budget for photography is pretty generous thanks to the fact that this is what we do for a living but but with other things. You know, when I'm hiring a service provider, I have certainly used Well, that's too much as my response when they say, you know, why aren't you going to hire me? And, and so I mean, you know, I consider myself to be a truthful person. But there have certainly been instances where it's not necessarily the whole truth about why I'm not hiring somebody. And so I was I figured that for this conversation, maybe we could talk about I came up with five reasons that I think that people tend to use price as they're, they're out. And, and in so doing, I think that there are ways that we can combat that. So um, so yeah, if you want, we can just kind of like, dive right in.
Yeah, let's do it. Okay.
So the first one that came to mind, and this is something that I think it came up first for me, because I see this a lot with the photographers that I work with and talk to, like when I'm, you know, going through somebody's website and helping them figure out their messaging or whatever. This is something that comes up a lot. So I feel like many of us create offers. So when we're when we're giving somebody the offer. And many times that offer is either too complicated, or it's just kind of too simple. So I think the complicated thing is, is pretty common, right? Like we many of us, we have this sense that like the more choices that we give somebody, the more likely they are to hire us. But the fact of the matter is, we can overwhelm people with choices, I always use the Netflix example, like you sit down to watch a movie on TV. And, you know, 45 minutes later, after endless scrolling and watching trailers you're like, and it's time for bed, like I never was able to land the plane, because there's too many choices. So when we as photographers give people the option to like, Do you want a mini session or a half session or a full session? Or I could come over and do a half day in the life or a full day in the life? And do you want to add on a maternity package, and what if, you know, like, there are all these different bits and pieces that we want to present to people because we think that like, Great, I'm going to meet them where they are whatever they want, I'll have a custom package ready for that. And there's nothing really wrong with having a whole bunch of different options. I just encourage people to kind of keep those behind something of a curtain and bring them out one by one as it's appropriate. So like, if you depending on how you manage like an inquiry, if someone reaches out to you via a form and they have selected like I'm interested in maternity photos, then maybe instead of giving them all of the package options, which a lot of people just like, list all that stuff on their website, maybe keep that off the website. And then when someone inquires, then you can just show them the one or two that are most relevant to them. Because what happened? Excuse me, what happens is that when someone gets overwhelmed by all those choices, they just kind of freeze up and they're like, Well, I don't want to make the wrong choice. So I'll just wait. And I'll make that choice later. Or I'll just not make a choice. And so you know, that's like you get somebody who kind of goes to you or maybe doesn't even reach out in the first place if they're overwhelmed on your website. Yeah, so you kind of want to avoid that, like confusion, paralysis. Yeah,
I feel that for sure. Because especially whenever, early on in my business, I was that person that was like, giving everything I'm like, here's any possible choice you can make, because I like I'm a planner. And so I just assumed that everybody wants as many choices that I do. And it's not the case, I got way more ghosting, when that happened or the nevermind, I'm just gonna go with this person over here. Because it was complicated. And it was that paralysis of like, I literally can't make a choice. And so I feel like that's super, super, just prominent in so many, especially early on in business when, like, how are we supposed to know that? That's, you know, it seems so counterintuitive, like, why would I get fewer choices if I'm trying to get them to book and so it's super smart about keeping it behind the curtain where like you're there, but they don't need to know that.
Right? And so you're basically just customizing what you're offering to someone rather than kind of brain dumping on them, like all the different possibilities in the world. Because it's the difference between you doing the work and them doing the work. If you think about it as in terms of photography, it's like when you call your raw images down to like the best of the best. You're giving them what they want, right? Which is enough that they feel like they've gotten a lot but not so much that they just are like, well, what am I supposed to do with all these photos? So it really is part of the job. But on the other hand, you do have to give them something right so To take it back to like the Netflix example, if you've got a million different movies to choose among, you may not be able to pick one. But if if somebody comes on and says, This is the one movie that you should watch, or you can watch, and that movie doesn't like fit your, you know, it's a horror movie and you're not into horror, then you're like, Well, I don't want to watch that either. So I feel like the opposite end of the spectrum from the like, too complicated offer is the one size fits all, like, take it or leave it, it's an all inclusive package, it cost this much, and this is what's included. You can do it that way, it is very simple. But if you are struggling to get people to book with you, and sometimes they're giving you that like I'm it's out of our budget range that reason, then, you know, you may want to examine whether you're not building some flexibility into what you offer, like if you, you know, if there's this option, or this option, which one fits your needs better. The trick here is really to just find a balance, where your customers feel like they're getting something that is special and custom to them without feeling overwhelmed by too many choices. Yeah,
I know, for me, in the in this situation, I like to, let's say it's, you know, kind of an offseason, I like to offer my full session. But then if they say that's out of my budget, my option is, hey, I actually run seasonal mini sessions that I feel like maybe a better fit for you. I run them at this time, you know, in this month, and so I can let you know when that's available. Or we can book you now for that session. And that may be a better fit. So it's not the 20 options, but it's, I feel like this may be a better option for you. I didn't tell them about it, because I'm not booking minis yet. But if I can tell that it truly is like a price thing. I can say, well, cute, this one may fit your budget a little bit more. So that's it's good to have that in your back pocket.
back pocket offer. Absolutely, you're actually star student here getting ahead of getting ahead of the game. So the so the Yeah, that first reason is just totally like are is your offer too broad or too narrow? Like, are we meeting people in the middle somewhere. The second reason that you get pushback, oftentimes in the form of like that cost too much. Let's bring it back to my example of people who you know, drive fancy cars and live in a fancy neighborhood and all this stuff where I'm like, you obviously have a budget. The reason that someone like that might tell you that you're you know, they're not going to hire you because it's too expensive, is that they're not seeing the value. So when you are proposing to work with someone, they you know, first they see things like your social media and your website, and they might see your pricing on your website. And then they might get in touch with you and you you know are going back and forth about the pricing. And this is that's it's always confusing when someone sees your pricing on your website, like you have it there front and center, and then they reach out to you. And then in the process of booking then they tell you it's too much. It's like, well, what, what happened here, right, it can't just be about the money. And so that's when you have to start digging a little deeper. So this value mismatch is where you have to establish like, okay, in the process of seeing all of my front facing materials, like my social media, and my website, is kind of what I'm giving off in terms of like my brand identity and my messaging and how professional I come across, and all that sort of stuff is that in line with the price point that is on my stuff, like if you're I see, unfortunately, a lot of people who don't feel confident in their pricing, and that lack of confidence, which is nothing like that someone's doing wrong, it can be hard to you know, put a price tag on the art that you love, and you want people to purchase and put it out there. But when someone hears that in your voice, and they hear that you're not sure about it. You know, they kind of see that as like, well, she doesn't really know. She's not confident about it, I probably can't be confident about it either. And of course, the thing that you're confident about the things that you're not confident about are different from the things that they're not confident about, right, like you know that you're going to be able to deliver good photos, but you're nervous about the price conversation, whereas they're nervous about like, well, is this person gonna make good photos? Are they gonna make me look good as you know, everything's gonna go smoothly. So the higher your price point The more important it is to be able to showcase that polished look and feel both in just the materials that you've got out there. And also when somebody's actually corresponding with you, whether that's like on the phone or anything else. Does that make sense?
Yeah, for sure. And I feel like that's a piece that people will, whenever they're giving their pricing, they'll say, Well, here's the price, and here's what's included. But there's no additional conversation of let me tell you how I'm serving you. Well, the experience you're gonna have with me, and that I think is even more important than, you know, yeah, you're gonna get pretty pictures. But that should be a given, like, what am I? What kind of experience am I providing? Because especially at those higher price points, that's what they're looking for is what experience are they going to receive? Because that's what sets you apart?
Exactly. And that's exactly the way that you combat this, like difference between the perceived value and the price point, right, is that you make it very clear, hopefully, before they even reach out to you. But definitely, once they do reach out to you, like, why you are an orange, and like, they cannot compare you to the other apples that are out there, right? Like you're, what you're selling them. And the price point of that is, has nothing to do with the other people that they have perhaps reached out to because of fill in the blank, whatever it is that makes working with you. so special. And so getting really clear on that is really important and conveying it as,
right. And I think that also helps combat the like comparison trap that we can fall into so easily have will look what they're doing and this and that. And it's like, if once you set yourself aside as an orange, you don't have to compare to other people, because it's different. It does not compare. And so because I tell people all the time, you are the only you right? What do you have to offer that somebody else can't? Because they're not you, you you bring so many different special things to the table, and so capitalize on that. And that's where that value comes in.
Yes, absolutely. Now, this third one that I want to talk about is a little bit controversial, I think, because I think this is where people can get a little bit scared off. But I think that one of the main reasons that you get passed over and again, like price is often the easy one for if somebody even bothers to tell you why they didn't hire you. Most people don't want to be like, because I don't like you as a person or like I don't, they liked your work. Like if they reached out to you in the first place. We all know that they like the the photographs that you're making. But so they'll just like toss price out there. But one of the main reasons that I think people will just kind of end up going with somebody else is that they don't end up feeling connected to you, right? The number one way to get someone to hire you completely based on not at all on price, like they are going to hire you no matter basically, as long as they can make it work, they will hire you. And the way to do that is to make them feel super loyal to you as a person. And like we all start that conversation these days on social media, in our messaging, like all of that stuff can can happen preliminarily before somebody reaches out to you. And chances are they are absorbing that before they bother to reach out to you. But I think that once they do reach out to you, the best thing that you can do, to position yourself to get hired, is to actually have a conversation with them. So I'm all about getting on the phone, it's like a one to one conversation where you can connect with them and listen to them and you know, hear what they have to say respond to their questions and their concerns. Like you can really tailor each and every one of those conversations to be completely unique to them, which is ultimately going to be you know, you're going to create a session that's unique to them. So you want to you want to start the ball rolling in that same way is my my argument. But I've gotten enough pushback about this. This is where I'm like it's controversial because there are plenty of photographers out there who are like, I do not want to get on the phone or like my clients aren't gonna get on the phone or I run a business that has high enough volume that we're not going to get on the phone. And so I would encourage you if you are having problems with booking rates to consider either adding a phone call or doing even something like boxer or Marco Polo or creating a personalized video when someone reaches out to you you can just sit down like very casually in front of your phone or your you know computer and flip on the thing and be like hey Catherine, you know thanks so much for reaching out, congratulations on your baby. Like, it's basically the email that you would send, but it puts your face on it. And it invites someone to get a little bit more personal with you, and maybe write back and be like, Yeah, I would love to work with you. But I'm concerned about X, Y, and Z. When you can get beyond that superficial conversation with someone, you are so much more likely to get them to where they're like, You know what she is $500 more expensive, but it doesn't matter. That's who I want to work with.
Yes, that's so good. And I love the idea of incorporating video. That's something that's like been on our to do list will implemented at some point. But there are so there are a lot of apps that make it really easy to do that. But I totally agree. And I'm that person that like I don't like phone calls, they anxiety. And I know a lot of my ideal clients also don't like phone calls, because they're just busy. And they don't have time for phone calls. But what we found as we add the personal touch through, like having our conversation through messenger, or through DMS, and I know some people are like they only want to talk to people through email, but there's just a personal aspect when you're in somebody's DMS that, you know, yes, you can switch it over to email when it gets to the official stuff of like contracts, invoices, all that stuff that you want, like solid documentation of, but before that you can have a more relaxed conversation in a place that they're already comfortable with. Having an it's just as that more personal touch of let's just chat in our DMS a little bit. And yeah, it does make a difference for sure of, you know, beyond just the flat email template that's copy and paste, and they know that it's not personal at all, you know?
Absolutely. And I think that the, the, the power of that I you know, it's funny, I'm 43 I have a 16 year old son who basically laughs at me every time I'm like, get on the phone. But funny side note, he just got a job for the summer as a camp counselor for the why locally, and he was late to the party applying for that job. And we looked online, and it was like they were like, We're all booked up. And he was like, oh, man, I wish I could have done that. And I was like, Well, why don't you just call and see if they can, you know, squeeze you in for an interview, just say you're willing to like take any job that they have to offer. Sure enough, like long story short, he gets on the phone after a lot of rehearsing with me. And he talks his way into an interview and they were like, Well, maybe you could be a substitute camp counselor, and then he gets in there and they see him and then they hire him as a full time counselor. So it does pay even if it's a little outside of your comfort zone to get as personal as possible. Like, I'm all for DMS. And I think that they're great, but the power of like, putting your face on the on the screen is like there's nothing like it. So definitely. Um, anyway, sorry. So soapbox, rant over. Um, so let's see, we have talked about the fact that like the they're either overwhelmed with options, or there are too few options, or they feel like they're not seeing the value in what you're offering is not different enough. They may not feel connected to you. And then the fourth one is that they're, at some point in the process, you haven't convinced them that you're going to be able to like meet their needs, right? Something just isn't quite clicking. And it's easier for them to blame money than to like, diagnose exactly what's wrong. Certainly it's not on them to like figure out why they're just like not getting the feeling right. And this is the part that really requires a little bit of digging on your part. What is it that they're that you're that they are worried about? What is it that they're unsure? I think we all have some kind of insecurity when it comes to booking a photographer, like it is a pretty vulnerable position to be in. And so an each person's vulnerability is different, right? Like for one person, it may be that they feel weird being on camera for another person, it may be that their partner is really not into this whole photo session thing. And so they're kind of going out on a limb by hiring somebody, like, you have to figure out what that is. And, again, getting on the phone with somebody makes it a lot easier to diagnose that on a an individual basis. But even if you were just to start following up with people who didn't hire you and asking them why they didn't hire you. Ideally, they'll give you a little bit more information then, like maybe your follow up questionnaire could be like if money were not an object, you know, would you have hired me or something like you see if you can scratch that surface a little bit. Most people aren't going to respond. The people who do respond, you may or may not get great stuff, but over time you'll start to hear these things. And also you have like a hunch about what it is that your audience struggles with right? So that's where or you step in, and you use things like testimonials, social proof, any kind of videos, anything like that, where they see what they're nervous about. And they see that other people have gotten past that with you. So you know, those kinds of things are all really strong. But the the other thing that you can do, even if you're brand new, and you don't have loads of testimonials, is that you can give them this, like, here's what we're going to do. Here's the path like step one, we're going to do this step two, we're going to do this step three, we've got this and woven into that path, you want to paint the picture for them, where you're addressing those issues that they're concerned about, like, I talk a lot to my people about the fact that, you know, dads often are like real grumpy about this. And then I have a couple of like, Dad testimonials that I send out. This, like, I didn't even want to do this. And now, you know, we've signed up for to do this every year, because it was not only was it fun, it was also like, you know, I was in tears or whatever. I feel like that those kinds of targeted testimonials are really, really powerful when it comes to people being concerned about more specific stuff.
Yeah, for sure. And it also makes me think like, in ways that we can incorporate that in just our organic content that we can address those objections before they even get to us of, you know, putting out those dad testimonials on our Instagram consistently and writing blog posts about why dad is going to love the session with us and stuff like that, that that would be a really powerful way to potentially hit those objections before they even come across you so that they're subconsciously you're like checking things off their list, they're like, Okay, this actually may work and then potentially, you know, book with you from there. So, I'm always like thinking, how can we repurpose this? How can you, you know, take this and put it everywhere, so that our messaging is consistent, and, you know, to improve the experience along the way. So
yeah. And that is, to your point, like getting that sort of stuff out there. A lot of these people don't even like those insecurities don't actually start to bubble up until they've got a contract in front of them, or, you know, three different booking links from three different photographers. And then they're like, Oh, this is getting really real. And all my like, dirty laundry is surfacing. And I'm getting really nervous about putting my money where my mouth is, like, sure, I was looking at Instagram the other day saw these beautiful family photos. And I was like, Yes, I'm ready. And then like now that the credit cards out, it's a whole different ballgame. So you just want to make that path as smooth as possible at each step of the way. But that's yeah, that's brilliant, what you said about like, repurpose, you know, making sure it's there, everywhere, like you want to just embrace them with all of your reassurances.
So good.
Um, yeah, and then, of course, like, reason number five, if somebody says they don't have enough money is like, they don't have enough money, right. And sometimes the budget does not actually stretch to accommodate you, which is 100%, legitimate and absolutely, to be expected, like, some people are not gonna be able to afford your prices, literally, I don't care if you charge the least amount of money in your entire area. Again, photography is not a necessity, right? It is a luxury item, even if it's priced really low. So you're always going to have people who can't afford you. And you have to, you have to kind of have a plan for how you want to handle that. Because what I have seen many, many times, and I'm sure you've seen this too, Rebecca, is people who photographers who with their very big, loving hearts are like, Oh, these people can't afford me, I'll just lower my prices, or we'll just do a freebie we'll call this portfolio building or whatever, even though they never intended to make that a portfolio building session. So you I, first of all, I think that it's good to have some amount of pricing information on your site. Again, you don't want to like overwhelm people with all the different options and all the different stuff. But I think I always recommend like have either this is the this is the minimum amount that people spend with me or like this is the average amount, something to give somebody a ballpark so that they can before they reach out to you make some kind of self determination as to whether it's going to work. And when you do have that information on your site prominently. And then someone tells you that it was a money issue, you can pretty well assume that you were talking about one of the other four issues right? But if you do get somebody who gets excited about working with you, and doesn't know your pricing, and then finds out your pricing and is like, actually, this legitimately, we just can't afford it. Totally good. And I would rather somebody make that determination than like end up in some sort of financial bind for hiring me. So at that point, you kind of have to make a decision. Step one or choice one, you can like, bless and release this person, right? Give them the names of some local photographers who are less expensive, or just say, you know, I wish you the best, whatever, that's fine. You do not have to book everyone who comes your way, right. But if you determine over the course of some correspondence, or some like internet, stalking, or whatever, that this is someone who like you feel like, could be a good client. Maybe, for instance, I live in an area where we have a lot of medical schools, like big hospitals that have university hospitals, where you've got like residents, and people who are just about to make a lot of money. But right now, they don't make any money. And they're probably in a lot of debt. And they're also at the age and stage where they're having kids. So like, I get a lot of inquiries from people at that stage. And sometimes if I click really well with them, and I'm like, Oh, I bet this person is gonna be a great, ideal client for me in like, a year and a half, but they're having their first baby now. So maybe I want to bring them into my world not like send them off to some other photographer. How am I going to do that in a way that is still fair to me and my business, because you have a bottom line to me, like, we all have bills to pay as well. You don't want to be doing charity work all the time, unintentionally. So couple of options. In that case, I love offering people payment plans, I think that payment plans can make it much more budget friendly for somebody to say, okay, great, I don't have to pay you $1,000. Now, I can pay you $100 a month for the 10 months. And then there's also the option to do exactly what you said earlier, which is to have like that back pocket down sell offer where you're like, you know what I would love to work with you, let's make it happen. So whether it's a mini session, or some sort of like half session, or shared session or whatever, what you want to do is just, again, make sure that this is somebody that you want to make it work for, like you don't have to stretch for everybody, but then creating a path that makes it more accessible for them.
Yeah, I love that. And there's so many ways you can get creative with that, too. Like, I love that you said the shared session, like, Hey, if you can find me one other family, we can do the session in an hour, you guys split the time and split the cost. And obviously, you don't want to like broadcast, you do that everywhere. But as that person that, like you're saying that's an ideal client that you know, will probably book with you for all of their kids and all the things in the future. Like yeah, see if you can get creative to come up with something but but I think the most important part is that it's like, it's still fair to you and your time. And so, you know, for you, it's not going to cost you any more time by adding in another family to that same amount of time in the session. So you can charge the same had the same amount of time, you're just getting a little creative with what you're offering. And I think that there's you know, a lot of value in that. So there's, there's so many ways that we could make it work. But I do think it's worth, you know, exploring, is that really the reason why they're saying that they can't afford us because if it is we can get creative, but if it's not, there's all those things we talked about to potentially, you know, solve that problem, or, you know, address the issues for the next time. So I think that was all super good. Yeah. Did you have one more thing?
No, I was just gonna say, you know, and when you do that, when you make an offer to somebody like that, were like, Hey, I really want to work with you. And if they then turn around and accept that, to your point, like you have just locked in gold for life, like they will really appreciate the fact that you have made this concession for them, but it's not charity. And I love you know, when you're talking about this shared session idea. Yeah, great. Bring a friend like, Oh, what a lovely little marketing twist that we've just put on this. So. So yeah, there are ways to get creative about it while still protecting your, your kind of bottom line as a business owner.
Yeah, that's so good. Well, I love all of this. And I'll probably have my team listen to this too, to get them thinking along these lines as well because I think that there's just so much value in in digging deeper and asking the questions and really trying to see what the root of you know, people's answers are and it just makes us better business owners at the end of the day. And we're able to serve our people even better. So this was great. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. Before we close out, can you let everybody know where they can find you? If they want to learn more about you? Or, you know, listen to your podcasts, like, where can they? They learn more? Sure,
yeah, so the podcast is called this can't be that hard, meaning like a photography business can feel so hard, this can't be that hard. And the websites the same and all of that good stuff I was gonna mention, and I hope this is okay, I do have this sort of the five reasons mapped out in a little download that somebody can grab if, if they're interested. So if you're interested, you can go grab that at this can't be that hard.com/worth it?
Perfect. And we'll link that for you guys here so that it's super easy to grab as well as all the other like places to find her so that you can grab it really easily. So yeah, I'm so excited for our listeners to get this in their hands. Because I know that it's going to be so helpful. And just a great like mindset shift in so many ways. So yeah,
it's important, I think to remember when you're getting those, this is too much. This is too much. This is too much that it's not almost ever about a you or your work. And it is not always about the actual bottom line, because the last thing that I want is for somebody to go, just being like, well, I either have to quit this because I can't make enough money or I'm just gonna, like dramatically lower my prices, when that may not even be the issue. That's it. That's the purpose here is to get you to examine the things that might might be at play instead.
Yeah, for sure. So good. It's just gold. Everything you're saying is gold. So yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And I know my listeners are gonna love it. And so hopefully they reach out, give you a follow and listen to your podcast too. So
thanks. Well, Rebecca, it's been such a pleasure. It's always so much fun to chat with you.
Yay, you too. All right, guys. We're closing out for today. We'll see you back next week for another episode. Bye
